Posts by Old Goat

79

Watchtower falsification of its history

by jwfacts in

i received an email with the following information that is worth sharing.. the 2011 yearbook goes to great lengths to elevate the truthfulness of watchtower information in even minor details, and criticise information from other sources.

so it is telling that the 2010 "jehovah's witnesses - faith in action, part 1" has omitted an important element of their history when re-enacting the 1922 cedar point convention.. under the heading "tracing all things with accuracy" the 2011 yearbook states: .

"jesus said that the faithful slave would be discreet in giving the domestics "their food at the proper time.

Old Goat

Calling a post silly and calling the man silly are not the same thing.

If I were argumentative, I'd be on every post stating my case. That I've been registered here for five years and only posted 100 times indicates that I am not. I am interested in seeing the best arguments put forward. Weaker arguments cloud the issue.

There is nothing in what I said that suggests I want to dictate what people post here. If you read up you'll notice that I said that there is room here for all sorts of posts. I don't have to like them. I usually don't read past the initial post if I don't. But there are some who post here who have the talent and observation to write things that really matter. I hate to see that keen-eyed talent wasted on a triviality.

79

Watchtower falsification of its history

by jwfacts in

i received an email with the following information that is worth sharing.. the 2011 yearbook goes to great lengths to elevate the truthfulness of watchtower information in even minor details, and criticise information from other sources.

so it is telling that the 2010 "jehovah's witnesses - faith in action, part 1" has omitted an important element of their history when re-enacting the 1922 cedar point convention.. under the heading "tracing all things with accuracy" the 2011 yearbook states: .

"jesus said that the faithful slave would be discreet in giving the domestics "their food at the proper time.

Old Goat

No, i'm not DJEggNog. I don't read this forum consistently enough to know who that is. I stand by my opinion. This issue does not further thoughtful opposition to the Watch Tower.

If you look through my past comments you will see that my primary interest is in Watch Tower history. My past posts speak for themselves and should server to disabuse you of the opinion that i am someone else.

79

Watchtower falsification of its history

by jwfacts in

i received an email with the following information that is worth sharing.. the 2011 yearbook goes to great lengths to elevate the truthfulness of watchtower information in even minor details, and criticise information from other sources.

so it is telling that the 2010 "jehovah's witnesses - faith in action, part 1" has omitted an important element of their history when re-enacting the 1922 cedar point convention.. under the heading "tracing all things with accuracy" the 2011 yearbook states: .

"jesus said that the faithful slave would be discreet in giving the domestics "their food at the proper time.

Old Goat

Well, I could say, "I win and you lose" but that's not the point. And this isn't that sort of debate. I've hurt your feelings. It wasn't my intention to hurt anyone's feelings. However, this is a world of strong-willed, strong-minded people. You need to learn to live with that. If you are upset by the words "silly" and "petty" what will you do with a real debate?

Did you leave the watch tower because of hurt feelings? I don't expect an answer or explanation. The world is a hurtful place. Sometimes we're hurt by what is not intended to be hurful. I'm sure the original poster appreciates your defense. He didn't need to be defended. He's a big boy, and, though I called this post silly, he's a smart one too.

I am not your enemy. But I will note that the one calling names is you. As far as my wacky beliefs go, you don't know what I believe or why I hold the opinions I do. You're too busy protecting your recently made decision to leave. No one is faulting you for that decision -except maybe yourself.

I have the impression that you're fairly young. Hey! Everyone's young as far as I'm concerned. But I mean on the truly youngish side. Do not make life harder than it needs to be. People will always have opinions that differ from ours. That they have contrary opinions does not invalidate our beliefs or ourselves. Why do I suddenly feel like I need to parent you? How silly of me. I wish you well, Cedars. I think you have some hard lessons to learn, and I wish I could make that process easier for you. Unfortunately I cannot.

79

Watchtower falsification of its history

by jwfacts in

i received an email with the following information that is worth sharing.. the 2011 yearbook goes to great lengths to elevate the truthfulness of watchtower information in even minor details, and criticise information from other sources.

so it is telling that the 2010 "jehovah's witnesses - faith in action, part 1" has omitted an important element of their history when re-enacting the 1922 cedar point convention.. under the heading "tracing all things with accuracy" the 2011 yearbook states: .

"jesus said that the faithful slave would be discreet in giving the domestics "their food at the proper time.

Old Goat

No, Cedars, you're wrong. If this forum matters it is because sometimes we take up serious topics that do expose the Watch Tower for what it is. However, many of the threads here are less than serious. They have a place too. What bothers one person will not bother another. The watch tower is a paranoid, dictatorial organization. If you just want assurance that you made the right choice in leaving, you won't get it here, not in a meaninful way. That has to come from you and your conscience. If you want to help others to see it for what it is, then point to the things that matter. You cannot be happy if you wear your feelings on your sleeve.

This is not a matter if is he right or wrong. It's a matter of degree and effetiveness. And you may wish to note that I did not belittle his opinion. I said this is ineffective because it focuses on the insignificant. All sorts of nonsense gets posted here. Calling it what it is, is not a bad thing. Was Russell a mason and are masons in a conspiracy to rule the world? Does the design on a New York City Assembly Hall, a design that was there when the building was built as a theater way back when and that is protected by New York State law, proof that the Watch Tower is masonic? Is Russell's will as printed in the Watch Tower way back when valid or not? Can we sue the society for what happened in 1917? Do elders have cooties? Which Circuit Overseer did you like? Or like to hate. (Hey, I have my own list on that one.) All these things show up here. Sometimes they're entertaining. Sometimes they aren't worth a read.

The one who wishes to stifle debate here is you. Not me. You need to reasses just how important this all is to you. If you are seeking a place where only your feelings, wishes and beliefs are reflected, you've come to the wrong forum.

79

Watchtower falsification of its history

by jwfacts in

i received an email with the following information that is worth sharing.. the 2011 yearbook goes to great lengths to elevate the truthfulness of watchtower information in even minor details, and criticise information from other sources.

so it is telling that the 2010 "jehovah's witnesses - faith in action, part 1" has omitted an important element of their history when re-enacting the 1922 cedar point convention.. under the heading "tracing all things with accuracy" the 2011 yearbook states: .

"jesus said that the faithful slave would be discreet in giving the domestics "their food at the proper time.

Old Goat

Cedars - don't be silly. I no where suggested that he needed my approval for a post. I don't need your approval to express my opinion on this post either. You like this because it gives you a sense of self-justification. You don't need to seek justification for your rejection of watch tower teaching. Pure rationalism is grounds enough. I'm no attacking him for posting this. I'm saying we can do better. This post is 'preaching to the choir.' It's not something that will shake the faith of a believer.

79

Watchtower falsification of its history

by jwfacts in

i received an email with the following information that is worth sharing.. the 2011 yearbook goes to great lengths to elevate the truthfulness of watchtower information in even minor details, and criticise information from other sources.

so it is telling that the 2010 "jehovah's witnesses - faith in action, part 1" has omitted an important element of their history when re-enacting the 1922 cedar point convention.. under the heading "tracing all things with accuracy" the 2011 yearbook states: .

"jesus said that the faithful slave would be discreet in giving the domestics "their food at the proper time.

Old Goat

I know what the watch tower says the prophetic significance is. When I was a new witness we were still circulating Rutherford's Light books. It's full of that nonsense. I own copies of the seven resolutions. You're missing the point. No one except someone who is desperate to find anything - anything at all - to criticize will see this as significant. You're holding the watch tower to a standard the history channel does not meet.

What is really wrong with the Watch Tower's presentation of its history is that it is contrived myth. The Watch Tower is guilty of altering its history by selective omission. It's guilty of poor and changing research. Document those things. Focusing on a truly insignificant part of the recent CD makes us look petty. It IS petty. There are better and less petty faults with watch tower publications than this.

79

Watchtower falsification of its history

by jwfacts in

i received an email with the following information that is worth sharing.. the 2011 yearbook goes to great lengths to elevate the truthfulness of watchtower information in even minor details, and criticise information from other sources.

so it is telling that the 2010 "jehovah's witnesses - faith in action, part 1" has omitted an important element of their history when re-enacting the 1922 cedar point convention.. under the heading "tracing all things with accuracy" the 2011 yearbook states: .

"jesus said that the faithful slave would be discreet in giving the domestics "their food at the proper time.

Old Goat

cedars,

The flag issue wasn't raised until 1935. Neutrality wasn't an issue of note until 1939. The watch tower still books conventions in statiums displaying flags. these things would not have mattered to any bible student in 1922. it's a non issue.

Focus on the real issues.

79

Watchtower falsification of its history

by jwfacts in

i received an email with the following information that is worth sharing.. the 2011 yearbook goes to great lengths to elevate the truthfulness of watchtower information in even minor details, and criticise information from other sources.

so it is telling that the 2010 "jehovah's witnesses - faith in action, part 1" has omitted an important element of their history when re-enacting the 1922 cedar point convention.. under the heading "tracing all things with accuracy" the 2011 yearbook states: .

"jesus said that the faithful slave would be discreet in giving the domestics "their food at the proper time.

Old Goat

I think this is an incredibly silly post and some of the comments are worse. There are far more serious issues with how the Watch Tower presents its history than the quality of a reenactment. The Watch Tower does not write history. It writes religious myth.

The portrait at the center of the banner is of Christ, not Rutherford.

Period photos of this hall show that the flags were a permanent fixture. They were not part of the convention's decoration. The motion picture camera has been photoshopped out. Are we making an issue of that too? And have any of you actually seen the convention films? They seem to have been lost, though they were sold through The New Era Enterprise, a Russellite paper published in St. Paul.

Instead of focusing on this scene's photo accuracy, focus on what the watch tower says.

And yes, i know I'm a cranky old man. Live with it. I'm old enough to be your grandfather, maybe even your great grandfather. We get cranky as we age.

The Watch Tower is full of poorly researched crap. Much of it is insignificant. (Calling the publisher Houghton Mifflin an author) and some of it is serious and missleading. Focus on the serious stuff. This is just silly.

140

The effect we are having on the Watchtower is HUGE

by jwfacts in

i was inspired by a recent thread i know i aint gunna crumble the wt, but a girl can dream to look at the effect we as individuals are having on the watchtower society.. 3dogs1husband quoted a story to show that even helping only one person is worth it.. it is encouraging to note that the one person you may have helped has lead to millions being helped, due to the power of compounding growth.. compounding growth is well illustrated by the rice on a chessboard problem.

if you start with 1 grain of rice on square one, and double it to 2 on the second, 4 on the third, 8 on the fourth, by the last (64th) square there would be 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 grains of rice.. likewise, if you help one person out of the grip of the watchtower this year, then next year you help one more and they help one, in a few years that is going to have a formidable result on the number of jehovahs witnesses.

look at the following statistics.

Old Goat

"Thanks, jw facts and Old Goat, for your findings. The WTS can see the trends, as all of you have pointed out, but I doubt they will change much about their approach and operations. I found Old Goat's experience especially telling. The Witness "historian" he talked to said that apostates have played a role in the development of Witness teaching and culture down through the decades. It is interesting that this same historian couldn't cite holy spirit as that driving force, isn't it? Yet this is the organization that makes new adherents profess belief that it is "spirit directed"! Terry, you were spot on about the Witness mindset. "Willful ignorance" best describes it."

I don't want to misrepressent him. Of course he presented all the usual "scriptural" arguments including the claim that Witnesses are directed by holy spirit. But you've heard all that, right? Retelling that here wouldn't sway anyone, would it? And I wouldn't put the word 'historian' in quotes. He's one of the few Witnesses with impressive letters after his name and a book and articles in his C.V.

140

The effect we are having on the Watchtower is HUGE

by jwfacts in

i was inspired by a recent thread i know i aint gunna crumble the wt, but a girl can dream to look at the effect we as individuals are having on the watchtower society.. 3dogs1husband quoted a story to show that even helping only one person is worth it.. it is encouraging to note that the one person you may have helped has lead to millions being helped, due to the power of compounding growth.. compounding growth is well illustrated by the rice on a chessboard problem.

if you start with 1 grain of rice on square one, and double it to 2 on the second, 4 on the third, 8 on the fourth, by the last (64th) square there would be 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 grains of rice.. likewise, if you help one person out of the grip of the watchtower this year, then next year you help one more and they help one, in a few years that is going to have a formidable result on the number of jehovahs witnesses.

look at the following statistics.

Old Goat

I’m passing on someone else’s reasoning, and I’m not sure I’m doing it well. In a fairly lengthy conversation with a Witnesses historian (He’s a “true believer” and thinks I am too), he likened the “apostate” presence on the Internet to three former periods of Watchtower history. He said that in the 1880s-1890s there were at least eight and maybe more competing magazines debating and trying to “expose” Russell’s theology. Watchtower readers also read these magazines. The same situation happened again with the divisions after Russell’s death. In the 1950s the same place was filled by some prominent and some obscure Apostate-written books.

He believes that the opposition fueled changes and “refinements.” While it created tension and disaffection (He named cases but don’t expect me to remember them. Many of the names didn’t click.) it drove doctrinal development and social change among Watchtower readers. And he said that “authoritarian figures such as religious leaders are not prone to self-examination; sometimes outside pressure accomplishes what wouldn’t otherwise happen.”

At one point I asked him if we weren’t supposed to “hate” apostates. He raised his bushy eyebrows and said, “They don’t generate enough emotion for me to hate them.” He sees us as a kind of Emory Cloth or filter. If I understood what he was trying to say, he thinks apostates have made the Watchtower rethink, reassess and change in some degree former practice. He thinks many who would have pursued baptism and then would have left don’t get baptized at all.

The conversation was long and rambling, but I think that’s the gist of it. In his view we’re part of an inevitable and continuing disaffection. He talked a lot about why people become anti-Witness crusaders, quoted some sociologist about justification. So there you have it … We’re part of an inevitable historical movement, part of normal religious tension that arises with any aggressive, Biblo-centric religion. I feel so special now -